How Cascador Is Helping Africa's Growth Stage Businesses Navigate the "Messy Middle" with Amanda Etuk

[00:00:00] You're listening to the Unlocking Africa I build a logistics business starting from the city of Abuja, from being a third-party logistics partner to becoming a logistics financing company Africa has a lot of great talent, but having a leader that is able to discern good talent from bad talent is also critical We do understand that the international community is more active when it comes to investing than some local players here

[00:00:29] Just us supporting these kind of businesses, we're expanding the expertise and talent pool available on the continent Stay tuned as we bring you inspiring people who are unlocking Africa's economic potential You're listening to the Unlocking Africa Podcast with your host, Terser Adamu Welcome to another episode of the Unlocking Africa Podcast where we explore the ideas, innovations and strategies

[00:00:59] Unlocking Africa's economic potential When people think about entrepreneurship in Africa, the conversation is usually dominated by startup funding rounds, unicorn valuations and venture capital Yet, behind those headlines sits a very different reality Across the continent are thousands of businesses that have proven customers want what they're selling They're generating revenue, creating jobs and solving real problems

[00:01:28] But they're stuck Too mature for accelerators, too early for institutional investors, too complex for one size fits or support Some people call it the messy middle Amanda Etuk believes it's actually one of Africa's greatest untapped economic opportunities As program director of Cascador, she works with growth stage entrepreneurs Helping them develop not only access to capital

[00:01:55] But the leadership, networks and operational capability needed to build resilient companies Amanda, welcome, welcome, welcome to the Unlocking Africa Podcast How are you? I'm awesome, thank you for having me It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast As always, I'd like to start from the beginning Just to have a bit of understanding of who you are Your journey, where you came from To get to where you are now So, please give us an introduction into who Amanda is

[00:02:25] Ooh, Amanda Etuk is, you know, would I say an entrepreneur turned intrapreneur I actually got introduced to the Cascador program After being an entrepreneur myself I built a logistics business Starting from the city of Abuja From being a third-party logistics partner To becoming a logistics financing company It was in this journey, the thick of things That I got introduced to Cascador

[00:02:54] Very interesting story I was a participant there myself I was an entrepreneur Getting into the program And it was during the program That my co-founder and I Made a very difficult decision To shut down our business That's essentially my origin story With Cascador I've been on the other side of the table Speaking to founders And supporting other entrepreneurs In this market So, that's how my journey came to be

[00:03:21] I had seven years of building the messenger Out from the city of Abuja Our target was underserved regions of Nigeria Equipping e-commerce businesses FMCG businesses With the right logistics support And then moving on to supporting gig workers Have the right logistics equipment To serve their customers It was just a very interesting time for us A lot of learnings And seeing how that industry moved

[00:03:50] From being, you know, I think Mostly owner managed To then being a full-time gig economy sector Where most logistics providers You know, are gig workers Very different from what it was when we started So, that's one of the painful I think growth issues That we had to go through Yes To get the sector where it is now today So, at Cascador I am the program director And my role is really supporting

[00:04:20] And managing the programs That's the educational aspect The leadership development Or what we have to provide To scale up startups So, people, what we call The real economy businesses Getting them ready To become institutional businesses Enduring businesses So, my role involves The recruitment The selection Really the support That these entrepreneurs Need to get from Where they are today To where they envision Skill to be for their companies Fantastic

[00:04:49] Thank you for that, Amanda I know you mentioned In terms of working with I guess, gig workers So, people maybe At the early stages Of their entrepreneurial journey Who are kind of building Or ready to scale But when people tend to discuss African entrepreneurial ecosystem A lot of times The focus is on Startups raising capital Or companies scaling And becoming unicorns Why do you feel

[00:05:18] Or think growth stage businesses Receive so little attention Within the African startup space? Honestly, that's what I would call the messy middle It's the most difficult aspect It's where You're a bit too large For early stage VC funds And then you're too small For institutional DFI Or even commercial capital So you're almost stuck In this valley of nowhere Yes It's where the business Has, you know Obviously gotten Some product market fit

[00:05:48] Some traction with customers But really needs the support To go to the next level It's usually the most difficult Part of a business to fund Because what they need Is not just capital There is an operational skill That needs to be added To the business The business has become More complex So pulling or pushing capital Down to that business It's not the only solution Here you have to think About the strategy You have to think About the financial operations You have to think About the talent

[00:06:17] That's actually working In those businesses It's a very critical time Where it has been Mostly founder led Yes And then the founder Is doing multiple roles Multiple things Actually working In the business Getting them to a point Where they are now Leaders Managing Specialized talent Within the organization So it's a very tricky Time to support And it's really where A lot of businesses die We have the statistics Of how many years Businesses get to Before they You know

[00:06:46] They will turn die And it's usually At that critical point Where they need to scale And then there are no more A start-up Or an early stage business Where they can get A lot of the support That is readily available You used the phrase Messy middle Why do you believe So many promising businesses Get trapped in this Messy middle Oh Because the infrastructure That supported them To get the early traction Disappears It's very easy To raise equity For an idea

[00:07:16] And then when it's No longer an idea When obviously There's some traction The expectations Are very different And in this market It's even harder Because businesses At that stage Need infrastructure Policy support They're things that Are no longer The soft skills Or the intangibles The actual Investment Capex Opex That have to be made Into the business At that point So again It's where Investors are looking For traction They're looking For returns

[00:07:45] At that stage And we've seen That a lot Of African businesses Still need A bit more support In being able To guarantee Those returns To investors Who are no longer Looking at them As early stage Or idea businesses The capital They need Is not exactly Equity It might not It might not Even be Institutional Or commercial Debt It's because They're still At that stage Where nothing Is really guaranteed They do have The traction In terms of Customers But the revenue And getting to

[00:08:15] Scale Is still shaky So I call it The missing Doors Of all those Factors I guess What's interesting Is that These aren't Businesses That are still Searching for ideas They've already Proven Customers Want their Products So From the Entrepreneurs You've worked With What would you Say is probably The biggest Obstacle Once a company Has achieved That product Market fit And what I've Seen Because Coincidentally You were in The process Of interviewing Companies For our next

[00:08:45] Cohort Is that The talent Needed to go From 100 to 1000 Is different From where You need To go From Zero To 100 You could Be scrappy You could Have some Luck In the Market But then Getting Those customers To stay It might Sound very Trivial But a lot Of people Are not Even able To properly Articulate What their Value proposition Is in the Market Especially Here in Africa Where we Do have A lot Of people Solving The same Sort of Problems So you Find that

[00:09:15] There is A lack Of differentiation In most Businesses They haven't Really found The exact Liver As to What is Really Driving Revenues Here You find Businesses Launching One idea Have different Revenue Streams But Unable to See what Is the Customer Willing to Pay for And The strategy Gap Or Even a Leadership Gap Within The Organizations It's not Just about Pushing to 1000 Customers Getting 1000 Users What are People Really

[00:09:44] Paying for And not Just paying For Once What are They Willing to Continue To pay For What is Valuable To the Customer What is Valuable In this Market Because Another Thing that Was Really Popular In the Early Days You see Founders Saying The X for Africa The Spotify For Africa So There's A lot There was A lot Of people Importing Business Models And then You find That What are People Really In this Market Paying For It Becomes More

[00:10:13] Pertinent To Determine What People Will Pay For What They Will Pay For Repeatedly And What Will Guarantee Consistent Recurring Revenue As Business Skills I guess Until You figure Out What People Are Paying For And What They Will Pay For Consistently You Can Get Stuck In That Trap Of Not Being Able To Generate Enough Revenue To Scale So Many Founders Might Believe That Raising More Capital Will Solve Their Problems In Your Experience What Challenges Would You say Money Cannot

[00:10:43] Fix Money Can Fix Bad Hiring I think You have Experience With That Money Can Fix Bad Hiring That Money Can't Fix Discernment Money Can't Fix A Lack Of Strategy One Of The Things That We've Seen Is Sometimes A lot Of Companies Are Trying on Different Opportunities That

[00:11:56] some of their capital needs to smaller startups so it seems like a lot of volume transactions but when you start to look at it is there any real margin being made there is there any real revenue so there's always also the the draw of working for a large player who's bringing volumes and volumes or a lot of business to you and you feel like what i think i have this customer on my books i really that's a loss making endeavor so we find a lot of businesses at this lead stage falling into

[00:12:26] the trap of that you touched on something quite important in terms of money can't fix bad hiring and hiring is obviously required to scale so have you noticed that the skills required to build a business are extremely different from the skills required to scale a business oh yes definitely and then we have to also take this back to the founder determining what actual skills and talent

[00:12:52] the business needs at that time so a lot of hiring might also just be a misplaced or an ill-described gap within the company a lot of people might be hiring for product who are hiring for growth but what they might need might be closer look at the margins and the numbers or a better understanding of the revenue or the customer so those skills are i would say that africa has a lot of great talent

[00:13:17] or even having a leader that is able to discern good talent from bad talent is also critical you could hire the most accomplished person who looks great on paper but might not be the exact fit for what the company needs to go to the next stage so i wouldn't necessarily put all the blame on the talent because sometimes it's putting um a square peg in a round hole you need to know what does this business need

[00:13:42] is there contextual understanding or if not even contextual or understanding of that sector is there something that has been done before that can be brought in here and we've obviously seen situations where people outside of the sector are actually able to make um great change within the company by thinking outside of the box but it's still um the owners of the leader to really determine what the business needs per time and it still goes back to having clarity about the business having

[00:14:10] clarity about the the offerings or the value proposition of the business that would then guide everything from the hiring to the strategy and the decisions that need to be made and a lot of founders are growing into that leadership position where they need um exposure they need senior talents people who have done this before people who are able to look deep into the market and and

[00:14:36] the sector and even the country itself and say oh this is who i think can work for you and i'm mentioning this particularly because it's the gap that cascada fills um we support our growth stage companies with the leadership the networks and the support that they need and sometimes that also comes with looking at the hiring decisions being made by the company as i mentioned it's one of the most critical flaws you hire someone who is you know a generalist when you're starting out and as you grow maybe especially in finance

[00:15:05] that's so big here in nigeria financing companies you then need someone who actually understands the core finances or speaks the language of you know revenue generation within the company so bad hiring it's something that it can be eradicated you can teach how people can descend better what they need for their business and we found that we've been able to support our growth stage companies with that

[00:15:29] so would you say leadership development is a central part of cascaders philosophy oh yes it is yes it is so we found that a lot of people or a lot of companies were similar to us would de-risk the investment and we found that one of the most impactful or successful ways of de-risking a business is actually building the leadership capability within the founder itself so if you have a better leader as a

[00:15:56] founder if you have a better more equipped um c-suite or a founding team then you've almost um you've solved one major problem within within the organization if that founder is able to then um articulate the the vision to investors articulate the vision to even getting the right um team on board then you know we've succeeded at something so leadership development we've seen is very critical

[00:16:22] to moving the needle with um businesses in africa okay so i guess without naming any names is there an example where say a founder's mindset or leadership became the biggest unlock for the business growth oh yes um one of the most recent like in our recent cohort um what was a game changer was working with

[00:16:48] a certain female founder who we went on to invest with and then what i would say that was a game changer was getting her to understand her business in a very crowded market finding out what was different about her and not just what was different about her and the business having the skills having the insights to look at her business critically to see what the gaps were it was such a huge difference for her in how she then went on to engage other investors other partners because she was able to

[00:17:17] present her company in different lights after that she was able to recruit more senior leaders selling her vision entirely gets new people on board leaving established brands to come work at this startup so that was something that we did um again helping this leader be the sort of leader that experienced people higher talent would want to follow we found that that was a strategic lever for us

[00:17:43] and it has helped the founder unlock more opportunities for themselves and be able to hire better talent being able to raise money on larger stages so i would say that that leadership lever unlocking that has been very significant for us and one thing that i would do is i wouldn't just you know talk about i was i would share a real testimonial video from this um from this um founder just so you can see that

[00:18:09] her growth and her journey through the cascade of programs so it's it's one of the most rewarding things that i'm doing currently with my life and just seeing i've been part of a team that is supporting in this way not just with capital um i'm not trying to exclude the importance of capital in growing a business but the other intangibles are so often overlooked that when you see the transformation that capital support networks and then that leadership development when you see

[00:18:38] what it brings together then it's it's such a beautiful picture and it's such a great thing to be part of so um watching it happen firsthand and then having closed the business myself um even though i thought i was a great person and seeing the gaps there it's it's such a rewarding thing so yes leadership is critical um in growing african businesses as we've discussed leadership is critical but it is one piece of a big puzzle i guess another area that's critical is who the founder

[00:19:07] surrounds themselves with i think one thing i noticed among a lot of successful entrepreneurs globally is they rarely build a lot so how important would you say peer networks mentors or i guess being surrounded by experienced operators is for the entrepreneurs of the businesses that you support so one of the most popular feedback that we get from entrepreneurs is i want to learn from someone who has done this before i want to learn from someone who has scaled their business internationally and

[00:19:37] worked across several countries it's something that we keep hearing from entrepreneurs so we have a philosophy where we say someone can be a resource multiplier or a capital multiplier so learning from peer networks or even mentors it means that the person is willing to take on the knowledge take on the networks and then be able to turn it into something productive because let's face it a lot of people are surrounded by great voices great people around them we have

[00:20:04] podcasts like yours where you have very um critical um sector leaders talk about their experiences um sometimes it takes a great founder themselves who we've called the resource multiplier to be able to take that education take that network and turn it into something so yes we're able to provide the environment but it's still it's still very critical to pick the right person to provide opportunities with because it's very easy to say i'm going to provide you with a peer network i'm going

[00:20:32] to provide you with all of this so you can have someone at a banquet that's still starving because they're not able to take advantage of the resources that they have available to them um so yes it's very critical but it's still up to the founder to leverage those resources in a way that is productive i agree of course no conversation about entrepreneurship is complete without talking about finance so do you think we've become too dependent when it comes to say venture capital as

[00:21:00] a default solution for entrepreneurship in africa oh yes we have um and we have so definitely we have um there's nothing wrong with a venture capital it's great for certain types of businesses but one of the gaps that we've been seeing with of course because that's this is what is most available this is what has been glamorized we have a lot of uh news and news uh moments and virality around how much

[00:21:28] founders have raised yes and has done is that a lot of founders are then um building their businesses for this sort of capital or positioning their businesses for venture capital and then there are many other options so that's something that we're trying to teach the ecosystem at cascada not not from a position of superiority but seeing that africa has a gap and that gap is not only going to be filled by

[00:21:54] venture back-up companies a lot of the capital that african businesses need especially in the real economy might be um concessionary debt it might be bank guarantees it might be collateral um we've seen that there's a large working capital gap especially for businesses that are in what we've called the real economy sectors manufacturing agriculture and the creative industry it could be a working capital

[00:22:18] gap rather than um a financing need that needs um equity contributions so there are ways that we've encouraged our founders and our entrepreneurs to look creatively um to raising capital for their businesses yes vc is very glamorous in this market um and it's what has been available to a lot of people or a lot of businesses but we push back to see that capital should be designed for the business

[00:22:47] and not the business designing for the capital that's available so that's why at cascada we consider a mix of instruments we have been able to support our founders with debt with equity um technical assistance a lot of time to be able to provide technical assistance in terms of advisory support to our founders i would say that a lot of people are structuring for the capital that's available and

[00:23:13] then for us we are providing different forms of instruments that the business actually needs so we encourage people to look creatively at capital creatively at skill i'll give an example here for one of our companies who was looking for funding and we encourage the founder to explore oem partnerships rather than continuously raise equity or debt for for um the model that they were pursuing and

[00:23:39] we're very pleased to see that this is this was a structure that actually panned out in reality rather than raising the debts needed for um that phase of the business so those are some of the things that we encourage people to do um also what we were able to do last year that we're incredibly proud of is that we were able to provide a bank guarantee for a dfi backed loan as a single digit interest rate so one

[00:24:06] of the other things that we've noticed that found a struggle within this market is um debt or looking for debt comes with so many conditions that realistically businesses at the stage i've described cannot afford or do not have collateral for that so being able to provide that for our companies our founders to access capital has been something so yeah we believe that venture capital is not the only solution it's

[00:24:33] great for certain types of businesses but founders in this market should be more creative in how they raise funding for their businesses you've touched on this but i was wondering or hoping to probably go into a a bit more detail or just to clarify in terms of do you use a mix of as a catalytic capital alongside debt and equity so from your perspective or your experience why would you say matching the right type of capital to the right

[00:25:01] stage of business is so important oh we've seen a lot of businesses collapse or even struggle with for example foreign denominated debt uh we we do understand that the international community is more active when it comes to investing than you know some local players here and that is a major gap so we've seen that sometimes getting that dollar debt that is very attractive and easily available puts the founder in

[00:25:29] a trap where they have to deal with um effects evaluations where they have to deal with their business revenue and you actually been um in naira and then you have them wanting to pay back in dollars so that is something that is already a constraint and a bottleneck where the founder can feel so just having that situation is one example of why we see um you should be careful of the instruments that you're using and then we we find that some founders become

[00:25:57] over diluted because equity again is the most available source of funding that they can raise at the time so if a business needs to expand have maybe even get some equipment for example we don't believe that that's something you raise equity for when you can guarantee maybe the revenue or even the customers so those are the things that we're trying to teach just so yes equity has only been available but we have a

[00:26:25] new sort of instrument or a new sort of formula that are available to match what we've seen as the actual gap in this market so yes catalytic capital is really important um i know that a lot of people shy away from the buzzwords of what catalytic capital looks like is it grants and what does that really mean what does it mean to be catalytic it seems like a buzzword um but for us it's more like we're giving catalytic capital capital to catalytic founders really because we do we're not constrained to using

[00:26:55] any any instruments we are able to be patient with uh in terms of um the loan tenor in terms of having moratorium periods in place in terms of pricing our debt um below market rates in in this nigerian market so so for us that's catalytic in the sense that we believe that our capital should then

[00:27:18] crowding capital for that founder after this stage so we know that money helps business to grow but i think ultimately economies do grow because businesses create jobs so do you believe supporting growth stage businesses could have a much bigger impact on employment than simply creating just more startups

[00:27:40] oh yes um we um we be that greatly um we've started to see we're supporting real economy businesses we do support you know the great the grand ideas and moonshot ideas as well but where there is an employment gap even with the startups that have you know coming to the nigerian and african market is how many people can those jobs can can those companies create jobs or opportunities for we have a thriving youth population

[00:28:09] and we have people leaving school every year and then coming back to the same job market what what's what kind of companies can create um the employment for people in africa so it's a major part of what we do uh we fund people across the hospitality sector um that is creating a lot of early state jobs for instance one of our portfolio companies is oriki and um for us even looking through an impact lens is to say um

[00:28:36] this is creating jobs for people who might start up as amputations for example we're creating jobs in the agricultural sector and we're improving their livelihoods and the impact through you know being obviously able to earn more through some of the platforms we're in the healthcare sector so we're we're actively supporting companies that can create um job opportunities um increased access to um

[00:29:04] the decent wages for people so it is a critical mandate that we have at cascader so i guess for my research and reading i saw that cascader has supported more than 70 entrepreneurs who have collectively raised over 125 million dollars so if you were looking across your portfolio what characteristics would you say consistently separate the businesses that scale successfully against those that don't

[00:29:32] it's very difficult to say like this is a hard metric of why people would fail or succeed because the market does play a role in the success of a business i wouldn't put that all on the founder or the kind of business it is some some businesses will succeed better in this market and or even succeed in an international market better than they would here so i just wanted to take that out of the consideration

[00:29:56] but what we've seen though is um a company or founder that really listens to their customer is um is a major lever for success sometimes just that customer um pulse you know the customer pulse helps the business avoid certain pitfalls or know when to shift or when to pivot to a different model and better than any other form of strategy would do um but really understanding

[00:30:22] the customer and the market is what we've seen that has separated the companies who succeed and from those who fail and we've seen also that those who are able to take on the strategy and the inside a lot of founders talk about data but we found that not a lot of people are using that data to actually drive decision making within their businesses people might you know try on an idea based on

[00:30:46] a suggestion rather than testing actually if this works so that's one of the that has caused a lot of losses for the businesses that we've seen um trying on tested ideas hiring and scale not actually knowing what is bringing them the revenue i know that that might sound um almost implausible but if you if you start to think about a lot of ideas that were pushed out in the early days of this venture where people were

[00:31:13] trying to grow that whole course because that you know not all customers are the best types and just people who really have a finger on their numbers um not every founder would is going to have deep finance expertise but just having a grasp of this is what drives revenue for me this is where we're losing money and just understanding the mechanics of the cash flow within their business is a way that i've seen that most businesses will stay at least we do know that the number one

[00:31:40] reason why businesses fail or one of the major reasons is really running out of cash so if you don't have an understanding of those numbers um what is driving revenue then you might you might not be able to stay in business for very long as you mentioned the data the numbers are important i guess ultimately nothing happens in isolation businesses grow within the ecosystem so if investors governments

[00:32:06] i guess universities or corporates each changed one thing tomorrow to support scaling businesses where would you want to see the biggest change oh i think we have a lot of work to do as an ecosystem and it's not something that can be done by one player in isolation um we do have to create the right policy and environment for businesses to try we've talked a lot about the real economy businesses or even

[00:32:33] manufacturing for instance and they are played by a lot of infrastructure challenges uh power um access to road networks so those are things where government has a major role to play um you you find that for manufacturers even in in africa nigeria in particular have energy as a one of their highest costs so let's just picture a scenario where for instance energy was not a problem or maybe

[00:32:59] consistent energy was something that they could pay for without the high cost of diesel or having to create alternative power just imagine how much profitable or more profitable that sector would be if that sorted out so again is having local players in terms of financing coming we can't always wait for international investors to back our local enterprises people taking a more well i say bullish approach to

[00:33:27] funding businesses within africa is something that would help this ecosystem as well um then having programs like ours that focus on the leadership and fixing the gaps within um the founder itself or the business itself and the internal team that's also a huge lever for success for these businesses so it's it's not just one thing it's uh many of different solutions targeted at improving you know our ecosystem and

[00:33:55] the business forward in general so if we kind of look ahead look to the future if we were having this conversation say in 10 years from now what would success look like for you oh um that's almost easy again just having that clarity of what would we like to do in 10 years in 10 years it would be such a

[00:34:18] great thing to say that we have created um 250 000 jobs or even just as a start maybe this is less than 10 years i think in 2030 the vision would be creating over 250 000 jobs through our entrepreneurs through the founders in our in our um pool improving 10 million like so that's direct and indirect jobs as people who are

[00:34:44] earning better wages because the companies that we've backed exist and these are people who have access to quality medical care because we've backed businesses that are able to provide that um these are one other thing is having businesses that can be recognized as the institutions within this market coming from a pool of entrepreneurs that we've backed i think even in four or five years from now that would be success for us um being able to grow a business beyond the start-up phase to become

[00:35:14] an institutional business and seeing a great number of these businesses being maybe being listed or being able to be large employers of labor being used as reference points for growth within the african context that would be a thing of really pride for us fantastic and i guess going back to your phrase or comment about the messy middle so how would you see africa's entrepreneurial ecosystem

[00:35:41] changing or being different if we finally solved the challenges that occur within the messy middle so i think that one of the greatest things that we would see is even an upscaling of the talent i think one of the issues that i mentioned was um not like bad hiring practices and that's because not a lot of businesses have grown to a certain skill within this market we have predominantly SMEs and we

[00:36:08] have very few world-class institutional businesses just us supporting these kind of businesses were expanding the expertise and talent pool available on the continents that's one of the things that us solving this messy middle will create and there are few businesses in nigeria that i would see are employing over 100 000 people being able to move some of the businesses that we have in this messy middle to

[00:36:34] get to the point where they're huge employers of labor where they're expanding beyond a particular regional market and for them to now become and titans of industry i think that moving more businesses out of that SME trap is something that would create even a better business environment within nigeria and people in being able to make long-term investments and beds within this space

[00:36:58] um we will be creating better returns for investors one of the things that has been stated over and over again is the lack of exits or the lack of proper returns and moving the businesses that we have stuck at this point guarantees that almost everyone who is playing within this entrepreneurial support system would win basically by just being able to fix the place where most of the businesses are stuck

[00:37:24] quote of the week as people we often have say quotes philosophies proverbs or affirmations that keep us going when times are good or when times are challenging do you have one that has stayed with you throughout your journey i think that it might sound very cliche but for me is be the good you want to see in the world i think it's such a powerful maybe will i say affirmation because it really pertains to my

[00:37:53] life and what i'm currently doing now a lot of the support or the things that i i felt like i needed as an entrepreneur i'm very privileged to now work within an organization that is focused on providing the right kind of support to these entrepreneurs so it guides everything from how we create the curriculum to the kind of peers that we put in the room to the kind of mentors that we speak to

[00:38:18] uh or we bring into the program to even the kind of businesses that we support so that support that i would have benefited from as an entrepreneur i i get to be an active part of creating that every day in my day job so it's it's a it's really a mantra that is very important and very crucial to what i do amanda that has been a very enjoyable and also insightful conversation i think for me

[00:38:43] one part that stands out is that africa's entrepreneurial challenges aren't simply about creating more startups it's about helping more businesses make that difficult transitional journey from surviving to scaling so yeah thank you for joining us today and sharing your knowledge expertise your wisdom it's been a pleasure thank you for having me thank you to everyone who has listened

[00:39:10] and stay tuned to the podcast if you've enjoyed this episode please subscribe share or tell a friend about it you can also rate review us in apple podcast or wherever you download your podcast thank you and see you next week for the unlocking africa podcast